I know I already linked to “An Argument,” episode #898 of This American Life, in yesterday’s post about Nikole Hannah-Jones’ decision to send her daughter Najya to segregated, high-poverty schools, but the episode is so good, it deserves a post of its own.

I was most struck by Najya’s quiet composure and understated exasperation. Despite her mom’s “experiment,” she was doing well. I couldn’t help wondering how much better she would be doing if she’d been sent to a higher-scoring school. It is, frustratingly, an unresolvable counterfactual.

I laughed out loud when Najya, still in middle school, informed her mom that she wanted to attend Harvard University, a predominantly white institution—not Howard University, the HBCU where her mom teaches:

Hannah-Jones: Yeah, I mean, look, I’ve been ingraining Howard into her since she was, like, three years old. And then one day, she comes back from middle school and she says she wants to go to Harvard. And I was like, we have never mentioned the word Harvard in our household. What the hell is happening? I’m like, what? […] Like, Harvard? What child? ’Cause I’m like, did I mishear you? Did you accidentally say Howard? No.

Joffe-Walt: I love that your child’s rebellion is to tell her mother that she wants to go to Harvard University.

Hannah-Jones: Exactly, and I’m disappointed. I’m like, what is wrong with you?

Chana Joffe-Walt, who produced the episode, sums up Hannah-Jones’ dilemma:

Public schools are unequal and segregated as they were ten years ago, 30 years ago, 60 years ago. If you sacrifice to make a change, but change doesn’t come, all you’re left with is the sacrifice.

Listen on the web, in Overcast, or Apple Podcasts.